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the refuge goes off the map!

Tuesday, November 6th, 2007


when we started the refuge last year we were a wreck. literally. a small group of us had left a megachurch wounded & disenfranchised but full of dreams of the way we longed to live out our faith. most days we woke up doubting ourselves, ready to quit even though we had just started. then, over a qdoba burrito & an hours worth of kathy’s tears, our friend tracy howe shared some of the fewest but most powerful words in the life of the refuge “you guys need to make some new friends…” she invited us to the off the map conference in seattle and assured us that she’d introduce us to a bunch of people who wouldn’t think we were crazy. we went. we were bold and introduced ourselves to as many of these new thinkers we could possibly meet. and we went home feeling a little more certain we were at least on the right path.

now, year 2 for off the map has marked just how far we’ve come. this year we brought 11 others with us to seattle (the conference was november 1-3rd). we actually knew people and we didn’t feel like middle schoolers at their first dance. people actually knew about the refuge and we don’t feel crazy anymore.

off the map is not the kind of conference where you get a spiritual high and then come home and don’t remember anything you learned. it’s hard to describe, but it is much more steady. solid. deep. it just sort of gets under your skin and makes you think. about God. about community. about living out the ways of Jesus in really practical ways. about the tension of our faith in these changing times. our team crashed on the floor of a wonderful church called vineyard community church in shoreline & spent a lot of time processing, laughing, eating & dreaming. we of course felt cool because our new friend jim henderson, the director of off the map, actually knows us and made us feel so loved (along with everyone else at the conference!). sage played his steel guitar in one of the main venues (we were so proud). kathy & karl got to share the refuge story at ken loyd’s “cheap church planting” workshop. there are so many highlights, but we thought those that went could share the takeaways so that those of you who wonder what’s going on in the big kingdom of God can get a taste, too. check out the many links, so many committed people living it out. enjoy & hope you’ll consider joining us next year!

amber lane: listening to some of the speakers, a passion surfaced in me that has long been dormant for social justice. especially within ‘religious’ institutions, and the question that I keep asking myself…how can I be part of something that upholds my values for social justice, and not part of something that opposes it either knowingly or unknowingly. i was reminded that this world is a hard one to live in if you’re not part of the majority, whether that be anglo-saxon, heterosexual, non-addicted, or thin. it is devastatingly difficult. given the difficulty we somehow make it through the day, maybe so we can continue to challenge the norms. whatever the reason, we are not alone and we can do this thing called life together.

christa romig-leavitt: “we will die with many, many, many unanswered questions. but we are paving pathways for our children in which they will live out christianity in beautiful and unimagined ways. in justice and love. In creativity.” … “we are dis-membered. what if we started re-membering.” the first quote is from a woman. the second from a man. i heard them both in Seattle. they make me think…let us all keep going. let us stay on this journey of question making to discover and re-member Jesus. let us do our best to stay dirty and resist the temptation to clean our hands. let us be okay with more questions than answers. let us keep loving.

john nunez: the thing that has stuck in my brain the most happened the first night. someone from up front spoke about a conversation they had with a woman while checking into their hotel. “if you were to come back to christianity/this whole church thing, what would you want/need?” she said acceptance. i thought how crazy it is that after 2000 yrs and a whole lot of talking, training, building, spending, discipling, memorizing, growing, claiming, praying about Jesus…the church/christians still suck at accepting. do we get forgiven and accepted mixed up? (check out what i mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceptance) and i thought….. when a christian does accept a ‘lost’ or even a ‘damaged’ person, what kind of pressure to change or “repent” comes with it? Jesus’ style of acceptance is probably so beautiful and elegant that when it’s really displayed in the world, it’s unrecognizable.

john parks: off the map was intriguing. it seems like we christians are beginning to experience the heart of God differently today. i started to step back and really look at my theology. faith is not so much about having all the right answers or having every base covered or even being able to defend my beliefs with the Bible. all that has a role but if I don’t love and accept people with actions just like Jesus did my testimony will always be a hollow reflection of God’s tremendous love for us. i was inspired to continue to lean into God’s love so that it can flow through me into His world and people everywhere.

jose escobar: loved the conference, but more so than anything, even though I got there late, i loved the time hanging out with everyone that went from the refuge. related to the conference, I liked the concepts and the diverse speakers, men, women, white, black, christian, and muslim, but it was also marked by a fairly non-diverse crowd. my favorite part of the conference though was the bridge service that we went to. i really loved the creativity, energy, and the music and songs (of which they wrote themselves). the service is really where i came out excited about we’re trying to do at the refuge. all in all, it was a cool weekend!

leslie kaczeus: sadell bradley of equipping ministries international read excerpts from the willie lynch letter and let’s make a slave in her workshop. i had never heard this and it sickened me, saddened me, and gave me a deeper understanding of the generations of brokenness and anger that our friends have lived through. she is an amazing woman. if you ever have a chance to hear her speak, don’t miss it! i also enjoyed the workshop on making friends with witches by phil wyman who is pastor at the gathering in salem, MA. he reinforced my thoughts about how normal people are that practice pagan religions and that we shouldn’t be afraid to build relationships with them. overall, it was just so incredibly inspiring to see so many people building bridges in ways and places that most of us couldn’t imagine would ever happen. thanks so much for inviting me along and making me feel so welcome!

karl wheeler: once again i experienced the confirming and marvelous joy of a bar set low. so low, that all who wish are able to march right over, head held high and dignified. after 30 years of conferences which should have all been subtitled “beat the sheep” or “wow, you are a sucky christian.” OTM is meaningful to me for its simple agenda of making friends, hearing from others, and setting the table of hospitality in all we do.

kathy escobar: one of the highlights for me was hanging out with our friends at the bridge worship service at on the house/church of the undignified in capital hill. agents of future rocks. loved chatting with jeff & jason from santa barbara’s uffizi mission project, deeply committed to their homeless friends & incarnational ministry with no programming. hearing rose swetman say “being missional is not having a cool service. who cares what band you have? i’m so tired of caring about what the meeting looks like. but what i care about is are you being the new humanity, and the presence of Christ in your neighborhood?” favorite quote: “people with power never think about it; people without power think about it all the time.” thomas friedman, quoted by brian mclaren who really is one of the most gentle but powerfully simple speakers i have ever heard.

mike herzog: i connected with brian mclaren and how the church is like music. the old way is like classical with exact notes lead by a conductor (a lead pastor). the new way is like jazz different people playing different notes in the context of a chart (shared leadership). both are playing the right music, just differently. and we could not have our jazz without their classical music. another thing about classisal vs jazz–there are no women, or native americans or africian americans etc. that wrote wrote classical, but many of the marginalized play jazz. my best take away was to practice what church is really about, being in real relationship with people.

sage harmos: i had the priviledge of playing music for OTM this year. my playing partner, jeff greer, is a young and intensely talented musician. he also is bald, has an orange goatee a half a foot long, and wears a kilt. my highlight was when a couple wearing western clothing (and the fellow had an american flag on his hat) thanked me and said how moving the music was for them. they come from a pentecostal evangelical church, and love to hear the steel guitar (usually country) in worship music. it had the spirit which they love in worship. they were so happy that we weren’t throwing the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to renewing our way of living out our faith. no one was “too cool” or “uncool” in our time together as conferencegoers. all were truly welcome.

we’ll end with this…from nate blegger’s blog, a conversation between he and ken loyd, the pastor of home, a new plant from the bridge committed to the homeless in portland. nate says, “i usually end up expressing to folks that the thing that gets me most is the “slowness.” “slowness! that’s the point!!” ken said. “you will be an instant success in maybe four or five years… you have to do things that are completely un-extraordinary. don’t do anything special or spectacular. this is how you will be legendary.” he went on to say that so many churches out there are trying to do extraordinary things. it is getting tiring for people. we just have to be normal and engage people where they are at with the absolutely normal things of life.”

other conference bloggers that linked to the refuge:
john smulo
(hey, check out john’s cool post from earlier this year “be like jesus” so good)
erin at decompressing faith

Posted in off the map, the refuge | 7 Comments »

what would jesus do with the church?

Monday, October 15th, 2007


this blog is part of a synchroblog (people blogging about the same topic at the same time). we heard about it from erin at decompressing faith. here are the details. check out the links below for others writing today & see what they have to say about the same topic. we chose to participate because this is a subject near and dear to our heart.. now we will be honest, we can be people who rant and rave about all the things that are wrong with the church. you all know we are good at that! but the truth is that ranting and raving doesn’t change anything. action does. we couple the refuge’s belief statement with brennan manning’s challenging words, “if you want to know what a person really believes, you need to watch what they do.” when it comes to matters of “church”, actions do speak louder than words. we believe it’s that simple. we believe right now, more than ever, the world is watching. wondering. what kind of people are Christians? how are they best expressing the life of Christ corporately?

what would Jesus do with the church? maybe he has given us a glimpse of what he thought the foundational values would be in his most famous sermon. just think how different “church” would be if we took these words seriously corporately not just individually. here’s our little interpretation of the beatitudes in matthew 5:3-10 for churches.

blessed are those who realize their need for God…
“need me the most.”
we think Jesus hopes that we’d be communities who actually recognized our spiritual poverty & need for him. we have observed in church a reliance not on God but on high-tech power points, slick programs, video clips, fog machines, lights, amazing singers, inspiring sermons, and starbucks coffee. we believe Jesus would unplug church and get back to what is really important—raw interactions with people, stories, questions, tangible life on life that required absolutely nothing more than people & hearts.

blessed are those who mourn…
“let people feel”
what if churches became places people could really feel, mourn, grieve, so that they could be comforted? many think that the church is the last place they can struggle because they’ve encountered people who have questioned their faith, given them trite answers, expected them to get over their pain quickly. the result is always shame and the one place we should be able to be free from shame becomes the greatest source of it. we believe Jesus wants the church to become communities that embrace pain. that allow for grief. that are safe for people to shake their fist at God (we think he can take it) but are surrounded by other people who keep comforting, offering hope, not giving up. this means we have to be willing to let go of our “fix-it” mentality, stay in for the long haul and understand real change takes time and might look different than we think.

blessed are the humble…
“put others first.”
Jesus said that those who are humble will inherit the earth, yet the “church” has tended to have an overconfidence, certainty, exclusivity that reeks of pride & arrogance. we believe Jesus is asking the church to consider some really hard things in this category: apologize for the wrongs we have committed, ways we have offended, hurt & beat up people who read the same verses & feel differently about them. bend our knee publicly. admit our mistakes. open our doors to the outcasts or better yet close our doors and use our money to “go out” instead of expecting everyone to “come in”. if we have a building, let other people use it a lot instead of keeping it locked up 6 days a week (yes, that means people from other denominations, beliefs & ideas). give up meeting for bible study and start actually living out the bible with someone in need that requires us to give up our time, money, pride.

blessed are those who hunger & thirst for justice…
“advocate for all of humanity”
the church has a bad reputation in the media for focusing on two issues—abortion & homosexuality. while this isn’t the place to get into that conversation, we must not ignore that every 16 seconds someone dies of starvation. little boys & girls are being sold into slavery right now. as you’re reading this, families are being drug from their homes and slaughtered. closer to home, that woman you just said hi to in the parking lot is getting beat up by her boyfriend, your co-worker can’t buy groceries for her babies because her power bill is so high. the hispanic or african american or middle eastern guy you know overhears the jokes that everyone at work is always telling. Jesus told us to hunger and thirst for justice & righteousness. maybe it is time to be suspicious of power that masquerades as morality. we have to expand our world, find out what’s happening in other places and make people aware of it so they can make their own decisions on how to respond. help people walk a mile in another man’s shoes. show single parents, the addicted & mentally ill, the outcasts that we give a rip about them. give as much money, airtime and encouragement as we can to local & global organizations that are dedicated to changing life tangibly & practically for those in need.

blessed are the merciful…
“be kind. it’s that simple.”
the church can be mean. ask a woman who’s had an abortion. someone who struggles with homosexuality. the single mom who asked for help with her rent. the person who believes in something different than Jesus and just wanted to have a conversation. the christian who starts to doubt. we believe Jesus is calling the church to be places of mercy. compassion. understanding. that we need to listen better. quit talking so much. hold the space. wow people with our ability to stay in & be present instead of ditch, dismiss, and move on to the next thing. build a reputation for kindness in small wonderful ways that starts to spread.

blessed are the pure in heart…
“freedom is better than slavery to approval & power.”
we believe that many churches are filled with leaders with great hearts who are sincerely trying to do what they think is best. we like to consider ourselves in this category! but we wonder if Jesus is challenging us all to notice how much of what we do is motivated by fear? how much approval are we trying to get? are we measuring success by stories of love and hope and transformation or by attendance, budgets, and adherence to the latest leadership book we just read? we think Jesus wants our hearts to be more pure, to be motivated by the right things, not our preservation or reputations. maybe he would challenge us to give away more than we think we can. to do anything we can to diffuse power. share leadership. ask ourselves hard questions about why we think we have to do certain things. don’t cater to the big givers, the power people, the ones we think are going to give extra bang for our buck. love people freely and help fan their gifts into flame instead of using them to get what we need.

blessed are the peacemakers…
“build bridges not walls.”
let’s face it, the church has a reputation for building walls against “the world”, those who don’t believe the same things we do. to be peacemakers we need to build bridges in our community, make friends with people & churches & organizations that are trying to advocate for the poor, the oppressed, the victimized even if we see God, the world differently. network with other faith communities instead of competing against them. teach and model peace, forgiveness, loving our enemies in tangible ways.

blessed are those who are persecuted…
“get ready for it to get harder.”
really living out the gospel means it is going to hurt. paychecks will be cut, women & those without a voice will get more air time. people will leave, demand that we “give them what they are used to getting.” leadership gurus will tell us we are stupid, that we’re not doing things we must do to build a successful church. hardliners will think we are not focusing enough on making sure everyone knows the truth. we might get in trouble with our denomination, our old friends in ministry, oh all kinds of people who won’t like us changing.

+ + +

here’s our bottom line. we don’t really want to do this either. we know this is the hard road and we are human beings guided by a sense of “let’s find the path of least resistence as quickly as we can.” but that was what Jesus was railing against. he told us from the beginning—this is going to be hard, harder than you ever imagined. but if we take his words seriously, then it’s time for the church to quit following the ways of the world—power, success, exclusivity, structures that have to be sustained, techniques-that-win-and-move-us-up-a-notch and start working on downward mobility—diffused, flexible, diverse, power-less, poured out, present, humble. we do not presume to hit this right. we are wrestling with all the same things other churches are wrestling with. but we guess what we’re saying is “Jesus, we’re listening and we’ll try to give it a shot.”

check out what these others have to say about what they think Jesus would do with the church:

erin word
glenn hager
gary means
alan knox
nate peres
sally coleman
barb
rick stillwell
jeff greathouse
dan
jonathan brink
barbara legere
jason ellis
rainier

Posted in church stuff, dreams, equality, spiritual formation, the refuge | 7 Comments »

dreams

Sunday, October 7th, 2007


we have a dream…
it’s not a small one.
it’s not a huge one (we’re not planning to lead any marches anytime soon)
we think it’s a simple one.

and despite our cynicism about ‘church’ (yes, we know it seeps through!) we are idealists. we wouldn’t be doing this if we had given up.

we are still “foolish” enough to think some of our dreams are possible. we think when Jesus said “your Kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven” he meant that the Kingdom was possible now.

here are a few of our dreams…

we have a dream that we’d be people who took Jesus word’s seriously. this means we don’t get to just talk about it, we actually have to be forgiving, loving, sacrificing, humble. we need to be people willing to give away our stuff, care for the widows and orphans, die to ourself, hug lepers, lay down power, and make peace with our enemies.

we have a dream that all people would be valued. when we look at each other we don’t let color, socioeconomics, gender, theologies, shapes or sizes or social abilities get in the way of seeing the image of God and respecting each other’s worth, value & contribution to this world.

we have a dream that no single parent would feel like they were parenting alone. they’d have other people willing to fill in the gaps, pick up the slack, offer help, prayer, and love so it’s not so damn hard.

we have a dream that no one would feel crippled by their weaknesses. the damage from the past & present would not paralyze us from living out who God made us to be, instead, we’d use our story to help another person.

we have a dream that we’d know our neighbors. actually know them, and notice if they’re hungry or sad or lonely and do something about it if we can.

we have a dream that every child had grownups other than their parents who believed in them. we’d see all that was possible, and cheer them on in really tangible ways.

we have a dream that people of Jesus would be known for the acts of Jesus. when people hear the word “Christian” they did not cringe and immediately think “judgemental”. instead, they’d have warm feelings that were associated with the truth of Christ’s love & kindness because they experienced it from one of us at some point and couldn’t escape its power.

we have a dream that we’d be advocates. we will stand with the marginalized, oppressed, poor & unlovely, that we’d risk our pride. position, and power so that someone with none could get a little.

we have a dream that walls between churches & the community would crumble. walls that have been built because of fear and past ugly experiences would dissolve. that we’d learn to share resources, support each other & let care for human beings supersede our politics & theologies.

we have a dream that every person would feel known, loved & cared for by another human being. that we’d do our little part to help banish loneliness.

we have a dream that we’d be a community of dreamers. what are some of yours?

Posted in church stuff, dreams, equality, healing, social justice, the refuge, theology | 6 Comments »

a believer. an atheist. an unlikely friendship. engage in the dialogue in denver this upcoming weekend september 14-16th!

Sunday, September 9th, 2007

the following is a reprint from september 07 vertigo: the monthly online journal of spiritual dizziness at the refuge. some of you have already read it, but the blog gives you a chance to comment on it, too. for those of you who don’t get vertigo, we wanted you to have a chance to experience it. to sign up for vertigo each month, click here.


this subject hits a place near and dear to our hearts–the ability to dialogue instead of debate, offer love & respect instead of judgement & condemnation when others don’t believe the same things we believe. being a Christian doesn’t mean you have to be a judgemental, arrogant jackass whose sole purpose is to tell others of their wrong thinking. ok, so some of you are saying “well, wait a minute, Jesus told us we need to speak the truth, share the gospel, not water it down.” we understand the dilemma, we feel it, too. and that’s the big idea here: how do we live out the ways of Jesus, really? can’t we learn to be better listeners, lovers of all people? what does this mean for the “church’? for the refuge? for each of us?

we hope you can join us as we dive into the conversation with the authors of the new book Jim & Casper Go to Church. jim henderson’s a Christian & former pastor from seattle and director of off the map. matt casper’s an atheist who lives in san diego. they traveled across the US together last summer visiting over 20 churches; their unlikely friendship and perspective on the Christian church will challenge us all. they are coming to the refuge on sunday, september 16th (we are hosting them at two other locations, too, friday night the 14th at CU boulder & saturday morning the 15th at pathways church). more details are on the web.

in preparing for their visit, we had a chance to ask jim and matt a few questions.

what motivated each of you to do the jim and casper go to church project?

JIM: After “winning an atheist’s soul” on ebay I was approached by George Barna about doing a book that featured myself and an atheist going to church together and writing reviews. Beyond that it just sounded like a very fun thing to try and pull off.

ps: you can read a little more about that experience here.

MATT: Ummm. I have been engaging people in talks about such questions-is there God? Why are we here? What should we do?-for years. In the book, you see that first I met Jason, who runs a home church, and we became friends. Then, through him, I met Jim, and we ended up writing a book together. I was motivated by the same reasons I am motivated to travel, to read as much as possible, to write music: I knew it would be a learning experience, and I knew I would have fun, too.

what was the funniest moment on your adventures together?

JIM: My funniest moments came when I knew what Casper was about to experience but I let it happen anyway and just watched for his reaction–like getting ambushed by a couple of Bible thumpers right after church or watching people’s faces twitch when we told them that Matt was an Atheist and I was a Christian and we were writing a book together about church.

MATT: Probably any time Christians made Jim more uncomfortable than they made me. Or maybe at The Bridge in Portland. It caters to a young hip crowd, who are typically a young, hip, and poor crowd. About midway into the service, they all started heading for the exits (a smoke break, I presumed). Seconds later, the collection buckets-trick or treat baskets that looked like Spiderman and Batman-came out. Suddenly, this mass exodus made perfect sense.

thinking back on your travels together, what surprised you the most?

JIM: How fair Matt was in his assessments of Christians–not a surprise as in a BIG surprise but as in a pleasant surprise. Also on how much we agreed on.

MATT: How much we agreed on. See? We just did it again! Also, Jim used to play in a few bands (”We were like ‘The Beatles’ of Mexico City. . . “). The biggest surprise was how quickly Jim and I established a rapport. . . within about a few hours, we were holding nothing back.

matt, if you knew nothing about Christianity but only went to the large churches to find out what would you say are some of the primary values of Christianity?

MATT: Believing in God, growing the church, converting people to Christianity. Sounds good when you read it like that. But I want to know: what good does simply believing do anyone? Belief is not an ends, it’s a means. And growing the church is not the same as helping people or doing God’s will. . . it’s more like a business objective. And when the talk was about converting people, it sounded like folks were more interested in putting “notches on their cross” rather than really helping people. . . “So, Bob, how many conversions did you land this week? Only 3? HAH! I converted 12 people! Boo-yaa!”

jim, if you were telling the average evangelical christian what is on your heart related to the “church”, what would you say?

JIM: If I didn’t have to open with a long list of qualifiers I would say: We’ve inherited a view of church that is flawed. It has been in the works for about 1700 years or more. It is called the religion business. We need to rescue Jesus from religion and take him public. We have an historic opportunity to nudge this thing back into movement phase if we can find the courage to follow in our founders’ footsteps and care more about how the missing see us than how the found do.

of course, your trip was limited to short visits into churches for an hour or so service. if you had really hung out in the community for a longer period of time, what do you think you may have discovered?

JIM: If we could have located them, we would have seen numbers of ordinary people serving non-Christians in ordinary ways. Unfortunately due to the economic pressures (as in justifying the pastor/speaker’s salary) put on churches there is little to no time to feature these ordinary people every weekend.

MATT: I would (and here’s my bias) probably have been disappointed as–based on some conversations I’ve had with more than a few Christians–a lot of people seem to think being a Christian requires little more than a 10% donation and an hour on Sunday. However, I did attend a small group at a local Baptist church where people talked about how to apply what they learned in that day’s sermon, but it was kind of meandering and no real “action items” came out of it.

what is the hardest part for each of you to understand about the other person’s belief system? what has surprised you the most about the others person’s beliefs? what has offended you? encouraged you?

JIM: I don’t find atheism hard to understand. I think it is a common sense and reasonable conclusion to come to if you are limited to measuring using our five senses. Further I think that a reasonable and maybe even a compassionate person (Christians call them humanists as if it is a dirty word) would certainly find it ludicrous to believe in any god currently sponsored by the major world religions. I mean they are pretty weird–including the religion known as Christianity. Having said that, I find atheism to be very difficult to believe in. I have had too many experiences in life that are transrational, loving and lovely to not raise my suspicions that there is a God out there who is at least as good as I can be (on my good days). Besides whether or not Jesus is objectively true or real I would like him to be and since I don’t find anything particularly compelling or interesting about atheism (which could also be a reflection of my lack of intellect) I will stick with the Jesus story and look forward to falling into his arms when this rat race is finally over. There just has to be a place called heaven–this place is just too screwed up. I can’t believe that this is the end. . . sorry.

MATT: This is the question we don’t discuss in the book, but purposefully. It’s not that we avoid it. It’s just that. . . well, what’s the point? If you want me to learn about your beliefs, show me how you live. Jim and Jason and all my believing friends know that I think believing in supernatural gods is really quite strange when you stop to think about it. But what encouraged me was hearing Jim freely agree (”Yes, I see how you think it could be very strange. . . “) and not try to tell me I was wrong. And I never said he was wrong, either, because, in my opinion, when it comes to what you believe it’s subjective and cannot be proven or disproven, so why bother. . . ? Ask questions, get to know a person, be free of an agenda beyond, pursue “I’d like to know what you think.” Nothing Jim did offended me as he answered every question from an honest place. Who could ask for anything more? I came away from all of this encouraged, because American Christians-in spite of the fact they worship one of the most peaceful men who ever lived-can get quite vitriolic and violent while discussing their beliefs. Jim didn’t and doesn’t.

what is the best thing you have learned from being in relationship with one another?

JIM: Being friends with Matt has made me a much more honest and grounded follower of Jesus. It has also motivated me to become a better practitioner of dialog and made me less afraid of difference. Our friendship is a unique gift and one I hope to cultivate for the rest of my life. I really enjoy Matt and especially enjoy his humor, kindness and interest in others.

MATT: Being friends with Jim has made me a much more honest and grounded atheist. It has also motivated me to become a better practitioner of dialog and made me less afraid of difference. Our friendship is a unique gift and one I hope to cultivate for the rest of my life. I really enjoy Jim and especially enjoy his humor, kindness and interest in others. Also, being friends with Jim has changed how I see the world. I was never an “angry atheist” like so many high profile authors we hear about today–Dawkins, Hitchens. et al. (I think they are “anti-theists” not atheists as their books seem to be about how there is no God, not about how living with no God can be a good thing.) I am now so much more in touch with how I see the world, and I remain as open as ever to the fact that I may be wrong about there not being a god. Some would say that makes me an agnostic, but the fact about gods is that no one can prove or disprove their existence. Thus, we never know (until we’re dead). And so, aren’t we all agnostic with tendencies toward either belief or non belief? I never asked myself these kinds of questions or crystallized these kinds of thoughts until I met and traveled with Jim Henderson. I am glad to know him.

the reason we invited you guys to come to denver is we believe in your project. we are listening. as Christians, we really want to be people who ask ourselves the hard questions–how did our reputation become so crazy? what has the church become? why is it so hard for us to live alongside people who disagree? we of course are hoping there will be a wide range of people at these conversations, across faiths, no faith, ages & experiences. so, as you prepare to come here to denver, what are you guys hoping the conversation will do for those who come?

JIM: Move them to connect with someone they think of as “the other” or as “an outsider” and become great question askers.

MATT: Help people return to treating faith as faith, and not as fact. In the book, I close with wishing people would stop staying, “Be a Christian or go to hell” and start saying, “We follow Jesus, and here’s what we do and how it has helped us.”

so, everyone, we hope this gave you a small taste of our conversation. we’d love to hear your comments. this is definitely one to invite your friends to. they will be at the refuge on sunday, september 16th at 5:30 pm. we are also hosting them at two other locations to give as many people as possible the chance to participate. . . CU boulder on friday night the 14th at 6pm and at pathways church on saturday morning at 10 am. for details click here.

Posted in church stuff, interviews, mega church craziness, off the map, the refuge | No Comments »

8 ways to shrink a church

Tuesday, August 14th, 2007

this is a reprint of an article we shared in our august 07 vertigo, the online journal of spiritual dizziness at the refuge. we know some of you have already read it but we wanted to put it up for those that don’t get vertigo (if you are interested in subscribing, click here). plus, this way you can comment, too.

when we planted the refuge 15 months ago, there were many people who thought (and secretly hoped) we’d replicate the “attractional” church model that we had been part of. it could have been so simple–a few good messages, amazing, upbeat music, a few light trees and fog machines, and we would have been golden. good communicator, solid care pastor, it was the formula for success. one problem–it violated so many of our core beliefs about what “church” is supposed to be. so instead we have chosen this harder path in the wider Christian community. at this point we aren’t sure if we’re smart or stupid.

but we do know there are many church leaders out there who are overwhelmed by the exponential growth they’ve experienced in the past few years (they definitely followed the manual we seem to have misplaced). they don’t quite know what to do because their budgets and staff keep increasing, they’re running million dollar building campaigns, and sunday programming continues to ramp up to near-hollywood levels. we have heard their cry and offer our heartfelt and sympathetic advice. you see if there is anything we feel competent at, it is managing rapid growth. in fact, we are confident we can solve the problems of churches that are too big. our answer? our area of expertise?

we call it “Church Shrinkage”….

just apply these 8 easy principles and we’re 100% sure your church will shrink (but who knows, maybe in the end you’ll live out some of your dreams of the way you’ve longed church could be)

1. shoot the sheriff.

don’t build what is called a faith community on any superstar other than Jesus. remember, He said He was the head of the thing, although people usually want a more tangible and handsome superstar, one hero who makes all of the decisions. hmm, no telling where it all went awry, but as far as we can tell the early church was just a group of men & women who loved God and each other and wanted others to know Him, too.

2. tell the truth.

be more honest about where each dollar goes, who gets the biggest salary (and the least), what the real agenda is. do 25 million dollar buildings really help poor Jesus out, or are they in fact ways to proclaim power and comfort? what is hidden is always bad news for the poor.

3. embrace brokenness.

sounds good when it is a program for others, but is confession a way of life for leadership or are the stories of brokenness someone else’s and the speakers seem to have more “victory” than the average schmoe? what happens to people when they aren’t getting “healed” fast enough?

4. demand equality.

look around, do women have equal status & power? enough said.

5. defer to the least of these.

are the folks in charge the ones Jesus would notice, or do they seem more from wall street? are poor, uneducated, but loving servants of Jesus on the elder board? or does the board look more like a fortune 500 company? is success measured in dollars and numbers? whose phone calls get returned? who is getting invited to play golf with the pastors?

6. be generous.

where does most of the money go? what is spent on “the show”, programming, creating comfort versus single moms, struggling families or hungry children?

7. let people speak.

why are we so afraid of dialogue? why do only the “professionals” get to speak?

8. value people above strategy.

what happens when someone is passionate about something but it doesn’t align with the personal preferences of church leadership? do staff people seem to come and go on a regular basis? someone is being sacrificed for a strategy, and that strategy is about being bigger.

see, anyone can have a smaller church, if you lay down power, control, and personal comfort. if you are willing to be honest about what happens behind closed doors, then your church can also have the joy of shrinking. we’ll be glad to help.

Posted in church stuff, mega church craziness, shared leadership, the refuge, women in ministry | 14 Comments »

high degree of grace required

Monday, July 30th, 2007


planting a church is hard. planting a church that is committed to trying wacky things is harder. planting a church that is committed to being safe for wacky people (as in every human being, when we’re really honest) is even harder. the reason we have chosen the harder path is that we believe simply and firmly in grace. not theoretical grace. not grace when it works in our favor. not grace that is just a nice Christian word. to us, grace means cutting each other a lot of slack, offering a ton of mercy and understanding instead of judgement. we’re not saying that there’s not a lot of grace offered out there in the wider Christian community. of course there is, but in the average church there’s not a ton of need for a lot of it to be dispensed. really, people’s craziness isn’t rubbing against each other too much. you sit, you listen, you pass out bulletins, you go home. you might need to give grace to the guy that stole your parking spot or the person that decided to talk to his wife during the worship in front of you, but the truth is that for the most part, real grace isn’t necessary.

but what happens when you really share your lives together in community? show up on sunday, open the floor and give room for comments and thoughts from all over the place? what happens when even the people in “leadership” don’t hide and say their crazy thoughts out loud? what happens when there’s not a program to hide behind but just this raw, real authentic entrance into the messiness of life? what happens when you don’t let only pros sing and play? what happens when people feel safe enough to share really deep things out loud? here’s our guess: some of us want to run for the hills as fast as we can!

why, because we begin to realize “this kind of place requires a high degree of grace and i’m not sure i have it to give.” we totally understand this dilemma. we know how much easier it would be if some great speaker or singer stood up front and put on a great, inspirational show that would make everyone love us and think we were the greatest thing since sliced bread and everyone could go home feeling jolly. but we know we can do that week after week without ever really living in community together. and Jesus’ design for the Body of Christ was real community not “going to church.”

real community requires an incredible amount of grace. it means seeing beyond the moment into the bigger picture. it is realizing that God is at work in people’s lives even when we can’t see it. it demands cutting each other slack. it asks people to supersede selfish comfort. it means we give the person next to us a break and then the next time they give us one, too. it means recognizing that everyone isn’t the same and seeing the power and value of diversity. it means loving unconditionally, not just when it feels good or people “do what we wish they would do”.

our ability to give grace has probably increased over the past 15 months we have been together, but to be honest, we suck at receiving it. so here goes—we are going to ask for it directly. the refuge needs continued grace. we need continued grace. we are just doing the best we can for the given moment and it is harder than you can imagine to not give up and throw in the towel. we must fight to be a place that can give & receive grace. it must work two ways—we can’t expect others to give it to us in a moment and then the next minute turn around and be unwilling to give it. we believe wholeheartedly that the ways that God conforms us to his image is in relationship with each other—what better place, then, to learn Jesus’ ways of kindness, sacrifice, love, forgiveness, humility, and yes, grace than in a community of people who are choosing to learn a better way of living. but, there’s no doubt, the cost is pretty high—it’s brutally hard. it will require us to get in touch with our selfish, judgmental ways, and it takes a ton of time. not super appealing on the surface, but Jesus was never about the surface. it was always about something deeper.

we honestly think that Jesus is calling us all to grace and we’re a little bit afraid of it….what are your thoughts?

Posted in church stuff, community, healing, the refuge | 2 Comments »

detoxing from church

Wednesday, June 27th, 2007

we know we sometimes drive people crazy at the refuge with our rugged rawness and lack of “professionalism”. where’s the power points, the lights, the 30 minute exciting inspirational message that gives you that shot in the arm you need to make it through the week? why do we ask questions and open up the floor to all kinds of crazy things that sometimes make us feel uncomfortable and awkward? where’s the predictability, amazing program & comfort that some of us have become so accustomed to? in the past few years we have undergone some major shifts in what we believe about church. we think that people are kind of hooked on church in a way that’s not super healthy–that if we don’t get a, b or c, then it’s not a worthwhile experience. that if we get pushed, challenged, made to feel uncomfortable, we bail. that sitting in a chair for an hour once a week, soaking in and not really having to do much more than listen is considered church. that we can be part of a church for years and still not be connected to anyone in an intimate and meaningful way. that our serving experiences need to be as pain-free as possible by keeping everyone on a once a month rotation for one hour timeframes so that they are not inconvenienced too much.
we believe the refuge is part of a movement in the body of Christ away from church toward real community. we recognize that this is against the grain and takes an incredible amount of work & risk; it is completely disorienting to some of us but what we believe is a more accurate representation of what Jesus meant. we are wholly committed to it at the refuge. and getting to it it requires detoxing. a pretty strong word. but we think it hits the nail on the head when describing what it is like to move away from our addiction to church toward a real and lasting intimacy with God & others in the Body of Christ. check out this article here, http://www.theofframp.org/Detox.html.
it is long but worth the read. we’d love to hear your comments.

Posted in church stuff, healing, mega church craziness, the refuge | 2 Comments »

KATHY - Can Church Really Be Church if We Don’t Listen to Someone Talk?

Tuesday, June 19th, 2007

Well in typical Refuge style we tried something a little out of the ordinary this past Sunday and at first glance it felt like a disaster. I realize, yet again, how foreign it is to not have the safety of a sanctuary with padded chairs, a perfectly timed worship set and a 30 minute inspirational message. We are all so programmed to think that is what “church” is that we forget that really none of that has to do with the original thought of living out the gospel.

So our little experiment scared the hell out of me. (for those who perhaps think we have become too liberal, notice the subtle way in which I have included a theological word!) And it really shouldn’t have. Honestly, it was no big deal but it felt like it was this big crazy thing because we are so not used to doing church this way.

We actually didn’t meet for a regular service this past week. Instead, we gathered in the parking lot—no chairs, no music, no signs (we don’t have any anyway), no nothing. We didn’t even take an offering—now if you have ever been on a church staff, you know that is the cardinal no-no (please, oh please God, don’t forget how much we need the money!) We were just a group of people showing up for “church” together. Karl and I lamely shared our hope for the night (please, friends, forgive us for our lack of any sort of clarity but rest assured, in our heads it sounded good!)—that instead of sitting together in one large group we’d actually scatter and spread a little love, a little Jesus in some small way in the community. It was not to “serve” in the typical way we think of serving—serving has come to mean signing up to serve a meal to the homeless, go volunteer in the church nursery, or be on the greeter team (no greeter teams at The Refuge, sorry, we know some of you probably miss that smile at the door a little but it’s just really not our gig).

Our hope was just that we’d pass on some love to the least likely, in the least likely way.

We were wondering, what if “serving” was just “noticing” people? Who around us might need a smile, a little help, a little hope instead of making it so complicated or disqualifying ourselves because of time, perceved lack of spiritual maturity, or a myriad of other excuses? So we split up in teams, grabbed some bags of random stuff we put together to use in whatever way anyone wanted to, and we met back at Karl’s for dinner and conversation. Some people went home and didn’t feel like joining in, that was so okay (of course, my first reaction was feeling like we had let them down, disappointed them, they were expecting church and got this instead. Then sometime later today I was like “why am I thinking all of their thoughts for them, who knows what they might have done on the way home????)

There were some fun stories afterward..some people brought flowers and a card to a woman who had cancer, others brought thanks and cold drinks and toys to children’s hospital and blessed all of the nurses & staff there who serve the Broomfield community, others went and visited a co-worker who barely makes it every month and is trying to get some healing in her life and gave her some groceries, others played with kids at a park, payed for someone’s meal at Burger King, brought toys to a family with little kids and not too much resource…all different ways that we passed on, in some random tangible way, Jesus.

Why do we always think it has to be in the big things? And why are we so hooked on having to go to church for an hour and a half every week instead of just hanging out together? This experiment was a little contrived, no doubt. But I think that was the idea—we’d probably never naturally do any of those things . We’re just so caught up in the whirlwind of life and all of our inadequacies that we miss all of these opportunities to offer a cup of cold water to someone who is thirsty, feed someone who is hungry, visit someone who is in some kind of prison, love the least of these.

So it seems so simple, so natural to the way of Jesus, so why was it so risky? Because church has become known for being a place where similar people gather instead of scatter, a place where we are supposed to get fed (and inspired) instead of give hearts to each other. Do you think that’s what Jesus had in mind for church? Creating a community is completely different from building a church. Church planting advisors in the church growth model would tell us that was a pretty stupid thing to do, not meet, don’t take an offering, encourage people to get out of their comfort zones…. That is church growth suicide.

But I guess I am constantly reminded that really following Jesus means church growth can’t be the first thing in my mind. Learning how to be more loving towards people is. And learning to be better lovers requires practice and it also means we will have to risk. It means risking an offering, risking offending, risking numbers of bodies in seats, risking my pride. I want to be a person who is more willing to risk. I want The Refuge to be a place where people are more willing to risk. I want to be part of a community that is committed to Jesus and each other first and foremost and doesn’t really care if they are entertained or inspired. They just want to live a new way, a real way, a risky way, the way of Jesus.

Posted in church stuff, community, kathy, spiritual formation, the refuge | 1 Comment »

KATHY - Downward Mobility

Tuesday, May 15th, 2007

Well it’s official I am over the hill! 40 years old. I know those of you who have already hit this mark don’t have a lick of sympathy for me. My favorite card this year was made by my son Josh, who’s 15. Here’s what he made up:
Roses are red, violets are blue
You might be 40 but you look 22
Yeah, he’s a liar, but he loves me (and if you ever need a self-esteem lift, just talk to Josh, he’s the best at that). But really, I am realizing that this whole turning 40 thing has been harder than I thought it would be. I keep flashing back to the idealistic dreams I had when I was twenty. When I was young and stupid I definitely thought life would be a lot easier when I was forty. In my dream, I wouldn’t have to worry about money, I’d be at the pinnacle of my career, fairly chaos-free, I’d have my two perfectly behaved children and a maid who would clean my house every week. Somehow, someway in the last 20 years, things have gone awry. A lot of my friends from college are rich but I now make less money than I made almost 20 ago when I graduated from college. Chaos is a word many people use when describing my life, somehow two kids became five, and walk into my house and it’s quite clear that there’s not a maid to be seen! My big plans for upward mobility have been thwarted over the years. Things didn’t go quite the way I had hoped. What happened?

Jesus got a hold of me, that’s what happened. And he keeps ruining my plans for upward mobility. Every time I try to get it, it sort of slips away. I think that’s a little bit what happened to me in this past year and a half as I transitioned off the mega-church fast-track and back into real life. Power, status, money, whatever you call it, escaped me once again. Hmm, I am pretty sure those were the exact things Jesus railed against but I am so attracted to. Jesus’ plan seemed to be a lot more about downward mobility than up. That’s kind of the big idea in the Kingdom. Whoever is first shall be last and the last shall be first. The least of these…blessed are the poor in spirit…all of the things the world (and even the “church”) told me I should shoot for, achieve, do, really, in God’s economy, means nothing. God’s economy is about love, tangibly expressed. And boy am I surrounded by a lot of people who know how to do that well. Real, true, authentic people who don’t give a rip about upward mobility and 401k’s and color swatches for their walls. I am in the trenches with people who are fighting for their lives, trying to live it well, and fighting for mine, too. And they’re fighting for the lives of others who can’t fight for themselves, either. Yesterday I watched a video of the poorest of the poor in India, beautiful women and children ravaged by AIDS and living in the slums, sold into prostitution, sifting through garbage to find something to eat. I sat at this table with people who are smart, talented, educated who have sacrificed their careers, money, status and power, to care about the least of these. I was awed. And reminded, for the next 40 years, I will have to fight against my human nature to clamor for “upward mobility”, a bigger paycheck, more status and power and listen to Jesus’ call…go down, Kathy, downward mobility, that’s what I’m all about…

I need to be reminded that Jesus’ words of blessing to the poor, marginalized, the downwardly mobile was not a threat, a coercion technique to force me into a miserable life. His call to me to go downward is His methodology for the abundant life, the easy yoke He places. If I crave His peace and presence, then I guess I have to trust His methods. Funny, isn’t it, that I think more money, power, status will give me security and a strong sense of self? Yet Jesus says it will be exactly the opposite…if I find my life, I will lose it…

Posted in church stuff, healing, jesus, kathy, spiritual formation, the refuge, theology | 2 Comments »

KARL - Inspiration Addiction

Sunday, April 29th, 2007

At The Refuge we have a high sensitivity to people who struggle with addiction. Not in the typical church sense, where the recovering alcoholic is paraded around like some trophy that shows how cool and “grace- filled” you are, and it is made clear the addict is the other person, the one you want to help. At The Refuge we have this sense we are all in the same boat, and addict or dabbler, we are all the same. But recently I have noticed that at The Refuge we have left out a silent and growing mass of addicts, and I have realized we have nothing for them.

I like to call it inspiration addiction. Like any addiction, this drug needs to be consumed in ever larger doses to maintain the high. We have created a faith culture that has confused adrenaline with the Holy Spirit. It is fairly easy to identify the addiction–“amazing” will be applied to all the movements of the service/show. For example, the worship, speaker, fog machine, light show, are amazing. I was once stuck in the lobby of a large church behind closed doors, when I wondered to someone in charge why we could not go in. He replied that making everyone wait builds anticipation and excitement. Anticipation of what? We can say God, but color me suspicious, I think it is the adrenaline rush of music that makes me sway, speaking that makes me feel, and fog lights create a sense of being part of something “incredible.” I am not saying God isn’t present in these moments, but I submit it is the fix, the high that is being promoted and everyone behind the scenes knows exactly how to feed the junkies.

I am sad today, but it will only last a few hours. I am sad because I feel I can not compete with “amazing”. I have long believed that the only proper answer to “why do you belong to that faith community?” must be something along the lines of “ I love to be with those people, who need me and whom I need, and together we are experiencing Jesus, giving Him away and growing, and becoming more loving human beings.” Whenever the answer is “I go to this or that church because of the amazing ________” (fill in the blank with anything you wish) we have become enablers to the inspirationally addicted. But at The Refuge, we have nothing amazing. No great teaching–often the most profound thing said is from some audience member. No slick program–we use for worship most weeks those friends who want to do it, not those who auditioned and have met some man-made bar of music excellence. The truth is we don’t even offer certainty, another favorite drug of inspiration addicts. At The Refuge I am realizing the only thing we can really offer is hope and long term journeying, listening more than telling, and a faithfulness to live the principles Jesus shared in every way we know how. As much as I sometimes still long for the old high, too, I am finding my inspiration sobriety is teaching me the hard but real way what it means to live an unplugged, unhyped, authentic life.

Posted in church stuff, karl, mega church craziness, the refuge | 8 Comments »

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