Comments on: KARL–Church Uniforms http://blog.therefugeonline.org/2006/07/10/karl-church-uniforms/ Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:24:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: karl http://blog.therefugeonline.org/2006/07/10/karl-church-uniforms/comment-page-1/#comment-21 karl Mon, 24 Jul 2006 23:43:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=5#comment-21 thanks for your honesty Jess, and i have had some second thoughts on this one. In the spirit of honest conversation, i want to say in love what i felt when i read your comment, not to be defensive, but it so illustrates a pastoral dilemna.<br/>I understand that the blog might have been out there, but come on, is that all it takes for you to say you are out? I love you man, and i know that lots of others do also. the truth is i plan on making a lot bigger mistakes than this, not on purpose, but i know given enough time, it will happen.<br/>I am asking you to consider what is behind the thought that you would search else where for community. the refuge is not for all, and if you feel God wants you elsewhere that is great, but this seems to sudden. thanks for your honesty Jess, and i have had some second thoughts on this one. In the spirit of honest conversation, i want to say in love what i felt when i read your comment, not to be defensive, but it so illustrates a pastoral dilemna.
I understand that the blog might have been out there, but come on, is that all it takes for you to say you are out? I love you man, and i know that lots of others do also. the truth is i plan on making a lot bigger mistakes than this, not on purpose, but i know given enough time, it will happen.
I am asking you to consider what is behind the thought that you would search else where for community. the refuge is not for all, and if you feel God wants you elsewhere that is great, but this seems to sudden.

]]> By: Jess http://blog.therefugeonline.org/2006/07/10/karl-church-uniforms/comment-page-1/#comment-20 Jess Mon, 24 Jul 2006 22:40:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=5#comment-20 Quite honestly and after reading this entry and thinking about it for a very very long time, I think that it is all in good fun but not in the least way the type of comments that are appropriate for an open forum such as blogging. It should really represent the church as a whole and perhaps a personal side of Karl as it relates to the body of the church as a whole. Yes it should be informal and fun, but going on and on and on for paragraph after paragraph about silly church uniforms will IMHO drive some people away that are looking for a real "doing life together" type of church. I quite honestly have had second thoughts about ever attending again. I also believe in absolute honesty combined with critique and not criticism. Sorry if some are taken back by my comments. Karl, we love you but this stuff is just to way out there for us.<br/><br/>Jess Gypin Quite honestly and after reading this entry and thinking about it for a very very long time, I think that it is all in good fun but not in the least way the type of comments that are appropriate for an open forum such as blogging. It should really represent the church as a whole and perhaps a personal side of Karl as it relates to the body of the church as a whole. Yes it should be informal and fun, but going on and on and on for paragraph after paragraph about silly church uniforms will IMHO drive some people away that are looking for a real “doing life together” type of church. I quite honestly have had second thoughts about ever attending again. I also believe in absolute honesty combined with critique and not criticism. Sorry if some are taken back by my comments. Karl, we love you but this stuff is just to way out there for us.

Jess Gypin

]]> By: b_davis http://blog.therefugeonline.org/2006/07/10/karl-church-uniforms/comment-page-1/#comment-17 b_davis Fri, 21 Jul 2006 21:41:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=5#comment-17 Wonderful! The only two things I would add to the uniform are:<br/><br/>1) An iPod that plays "worship" music that only reflects on the happy/positive aspects of following Jesus - nothing too heavy lyricly, musically or theologically;<br/><br/>2) A field manual filled with pat answers and cliche catch-phrases used to make people feel good that only make sense to Xians. <br/><br/>All in good fun, friends. All in good fun... Wonderful! The only two things I would add to the uniform are:

1) An iPod that plays “worship” music that only reflects on the happy/positive aspects of following Jesus - nothing too heavy lyricly, musically or theologically;

2) A field manual filled with pat answers and cliche catch-phrases used to make people feel good that only make sense to Xians.

All in good fun, friends. All in good fun…

]]> By: Susan http://blog.therefugeonline.org/2006/07/10/karl-church-uniforms/comment-page-1/#comment-10 Susan Sat, 15 Jul 2006 21:18:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=5#comment-10 I'm psyched that we can be a bunch of folks that blow the legalistic rules out of the water. Karl, you made it clear in the blog - in a great creative way - that we are not aligned with those who would separate "us" and "them" by judgements and condemnations.<br/><br/>I am guilty of a much subtler alienation. Who's like me vs. who isn't. You can go so far and be OK, but there is some arbitrary line that gets crossed somewhere and then I'm guilty of the judgement too. <br/><br/>I recently went to a charismatic service where people were acting "really out there" based on my comfort zone. I recognized right off what I was doing, but boy was it hard to find complete acceptance, even though I realized that these people had complete acceptance of me even though I was not like them. They were way ahead of me. I couldn't let go of the thought that they weren't for real - that they were fooling themselves, or maybe even a little kooky. What things I can come up with when I'm in new territory!<br/><br/>As Pam pointed out, we are to judge as far as discernment goes - speak the truth and do what's right - but we are not to condemn. The line is fine. For me, it is a moment by moment battle to fight the haughtiness (not quite that strong, but I can't think of another word) - it just kicks in. I'm sensitive to it. My dream is that we (and by we, I especially mean "I") can love and encourage those who are not like us/me, and help each other be like the One we all love. I’m psyched that we can be a bunch of folks that blow the legalistic rules out of the water. Karl, you made it clear in the blog - in a great creative way - that we are not aligned with those who would separate “us” and “them” by judgements and condemnations.

I am guilty of a much subtler alienation. Who’s like me vs. who isn’t. You can go so far and be OK, but there is some arbitrary line that gets crossed somewhere and then I’m guilty of the judgement too.

I recently went to a charismatic service where people were acting “really out there” based on my comfort zone. I recognized right off what I was doing, but boy was it hard to find complete acceptance, even though I realized that these people had complete acceptance of me even though I was not like them. They were way ahead of me. I couldn’t let go of the thought that they weren’t for real - that they were fooling themselves, or maybe even a little kooky. What things I can come up with when I’m in new territory!

As Pam pointed out, we are to judge as far as discernment goes - speak the truth and do what’s right - but we are not to condemn. The line is fine. For me, it is a moment by moment battle to fight the haughtiness (not quite that strong, but I can’t think of another word) - it just kicks in. I’m sensitive to it. My dream is that we (and by we, I especially mean “I”) can love and encourage those who are not like us/me, and help each other be like the One we all love.

]]> By: kathy http://blog.therefugeonline.org/2006/07/10/karl-church-uniforms/comment-page-1/#comment-9 kathy Sat, 15 Jul 2006 18:12:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=5#comment-9 after susan's comment i started to feel guilty for thinking this was so funny. karl, i thought it was hysterical. then, i remembered the point here--to stir up great conversation! susan, i see where you are coming from in terms of being careful of judging. that's fair. but i think the bigger point of this blog entry is this--what does the world need more of? more rules? more conformity? more 'if you do it this way then you're okay'? more christians living in their own little ghetto? christians have a terrible reputation in the world. years ago, i was part of spreading this bad reputation; boy was i a good pharisee 14-15 years ago! it is so sad to me and i want to be part of the change. i want to love all people. i want to be in the world but not of the world. i want to be different but not isolate myself from others. i want to radically accept all people. i want to see God in the ungodly. i want to be able to engage in wild and crazy conversations with people who believe different things than me and not be afraid of it. i want to show Jesus' love in tangible ways. and i want others to accept me as i am, too, a christian who happens to see things a little more grey. i have had christian friends condemn me for seeing rated R movies, for listening to secular radio stations, for reading certain books, for believing in the benefits of counseling. they've actually questioned my salvation because of it--i am not kidding! come on, GOD transcends positive, encouraging 91.1! and yes, i need to be careful and not be a reverse pharisee, just as judgemental about legalistic christians as they are of me! after susan’s comment i started to feel guilty for thinking this was so funny. karl, i thought it was hysterical. then, i remembered the point here–to stir up great conversation! susan, i see where you are coming from in terms of being careful of judging. that’s fair. but i think the bigger point of this blog entry is this–what does the world need more of? more rules? more conformity? more ‘if you do it this way then you’re okay’? more christians living in their own little ghetto? christians have a terrible reputation in the world. years ago, i was part of spreading this bad reputation; boy was i a good pharisee 14-15 years ago! it is so sad to me and i want to be part of the change. i want to love all people. i want to be in the world but not of the world. i want to be different but not isolate myself from others. i want to radically accept all people. i want to see God in the ungodly. i want to be able to engage in wild and crazy conversations with people who believe different things than me and not be afraid of it. i want to show Jesus’ love in tangible ways. and i want others to accept me as i am, too, a christian who happens to see things a little more grey. i have had christian friends condemn me for seeing rated R movies, for listening to secular radio stations, for reading certain books, for believing in the benefits of counseling. they’ve actually questioned my salvation because of it–i am not kidding! come on, GOD transcends positive, encouraging 91.1! and yes, i need to be careful and not be a reverse pharisee, just as judgemental about legalistic christians as they are of me!

]]> By: Pam http://blog.therefugeonline.org/2006/07/10/karl-church-uniforms/comment-page-1/#comment-8 Pam Fri, 14 Jul 2006 23:58:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=5#comment-8 Are we told not to judge? Really? We are told to judge or test truth and error. Now I admit it is often difficult to separate the faulty belief system of a person and love the people themselves, but that is what we are called to do in order that we can win them to the gospel. That is certainly where I need the Holy Spirit's intervention. I do not have to judge people, God will do that, but he is better equipped than I am. He's perfect. While uniforms seem like an outrageous idea, what about the positive side, that we might not compare ourselves to one another? There is a spiritual sense where we all come before God equally. The difference will be those who are in Christ and those who are not, oh yes, that cross thing. <br/>Ok, enough sarcasism. <br/>A quote from some reading I have done recently:<br/>The simple truth is that understand who I am and where I deserve to be. I deserve God's wrath (judgement). Honestly, I deserve to be in hell. But instead I'm God's adopted child, I'm forgiven of my many sins and I'm loved by Him! I'm going to heaven! I'm doing so much better than I deserve. This perspective fills me with joy even on days when things aren't going as I'd planned." Are we told not to judge? Really? We are told to judge or test truth and error. Now I admit it is often difficult to separate the faulty belief system of a person and love the people themselves, but that is what we are called to do in order that we can win them to the gospel. That is certainly where I need the Holy Spirit’s intervention. I do not have to judge people, God will do that, but he is better equipped than I am. He’s perfect. While uniforms seem like an outrageous idea, what about the positive side, that we might not compare ourselves to one another? There is a spiritual sense where we all come before God equally. The difference will be those who are in Christ and those who are not, oh yes, that cross thing.
Ok, enough sarcasism.
A quote from some reading I have done recently:
The simple truth is that understand who I am and where I deserve to be. I deserve God’s wrath (judgement). Honestly, I deserve to be in hell. But instead I’m God’s adopted child, I’m forgiven of my many sins and I’m loved by Him! I’m going to heaven! I’m doing so much better than I deserve. This perspective fills me with joy even on days when things aren’t going as I’d planned.”

]]> By: Susan http://blog.therefugeonline.org/2006/07/10/karl-church-uniforms/comment-page-1/#comment-6 Susan Fri, 14 Jul 2006 16:45:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=5#comment-6 It's never OK to judge our "bretheren" by race, lifestyle, political affiliation, gender, etc. And it is our charge to call it when we see it happening, and "rebuke" so to speak.<br/><br/>But(t)- here's a fact. Jesus told us not to judge, and I guess that also means not judging the "so-called-righteous". I admit it is hard not to go down that road sometimes, but we have to try to love each other, and not promote the "us vs. them" stuff. It's OK to say, "this is not going to happen here", but what can we do to learn how to love those we don't agree with, who hurt us, who judge us - those whom we are charged to forgive and love? What can we do to be different, and not to be like them, just taking the other side?<br/><br/>I don't want to jump on the uniform bandwagon. I want to be able to say, in the famous words of Lisa, the fiance from "My <br/>Cousin Vinny", "Yeah. You blend." It’s never OK to judge our “bretheren” by race, lifestyle, political affiliation, gender, etc. And it is our charge to call it when we see it happening, and “rebuke” so to speak.

But(t)- here’s a fact. Jesus told us not to judge, and I guess that also means not judging the “so-called-righteous”. I admit it is hard not to go down that road sometimes, but we have to try to love each other, and not promote the “us vs. them” stuff. It’s OK to say, “this is not going to happen here”, but what can we do to learn how to love those we don’t agree with, who hurt us, who judge us - those whom we are charged to forgive and love? What can we do to be different, and not to be like them, just taking the other side?

I don’t want to jump on the uniform bandwagon. I want to be able to say, in the famous words of Lisa, the fiance from “My
Cousin Vinny”, “Yeah. You blend.”

]]> By: Katie Peterson http://blog.therefugeonline.org/2006/07/10/karl-church-uniforms/comment-page-1/#comment-5 Katie Peterson Tue, 11 Jul 2006 16:31:00 +0000 http://www.blog.therefugeonline.org/blog/?p=5#comment-5 Do you think we should have some special underwear, too, in order to preserve chastity? Do you think we should have some special underwear, too, in order to preserve chastity?

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